Gift of the Gab with Amelia Noor Oshiro: Discussing Suicide Research Within Muslim Communities

Disclaimer: Trigger warning. This episode mentions suicide and suicidal ideation. Listener discretion is advised. 

[I'm A Muslim (And That's Okay!) intro] 

Shehla: I'm A Muslim and That's Okay presents Gift of the Gab because everybody's got something to say. 

[intro ends] 

Hi, everyone. May peace be on you all and welcome to another episode of I'm a Muslim and That's Okay. And those who are on video can see my lovely cohost who has decided that she's going to go completely bonkers on me today. It's my parakeet, my little Mariposa. And she's all over me and I'm not sure what to do. I would put her back, but then she'd start chirping in her cage, we're not going to do that. I'm hoping that she does not interfere too much, but entertainment for all those who can see us. And I am with my lovely guest, Amelia Noor Oshiro. How are you doing, Amelia? 

Amelia: Salam alaykum, alhamdulillah. Everything's going well? Hi, Mariposa, hola, como estas. 

Shehla: [laughs] And I have Amelia with me as-- not first, but my second Gift of the Gab guest. And as I explained to all y'all last episode that this season has been an entirety of really some really heavy deep topics, and continuing in that vein, I have Amelia with me to have a very important discussion. So, before we get into that, Amelia, please tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do. 

Amelia: Absolutely. I identify as Muslim and I conduct research on the US Muslim community in terms of understanding what factors are related to good mental health and also outcomes like suicide, so trigger warning.

It is September’s Suicide Prevention Awareness Month, and I identify as an attempt survivor, so I've also had several hospitalizations, two involuntary and one voluntary hospitalization. And so, what I kind of say is that I bring lived experience as who has mental illness and has gone through the system. And then also there's like an activism and scholarship side that I [audio cut] and so I'm trying to merge both of those and be an advocate and bring more political attention to suicide prevention. 

Shehla: That is so amazing. And right now, you're pursuing your PhD in these studies, if I'm not mistaken. I think if I had to begin somewhere, Amelia, it's just that it is indeed, as you said, it is your lived experience. But if I had to start anywhere, and I've asked this question before, is that-- there is already research out there for suicide and suicide attempts and things that make people more prone, less prone to any of this. Yours is focused on being Muslim-centric, why is that important? 

Amelia: Oh, yeah, I love that question. First of all, let me say that Muslims are scientifically considered a hard-to-reach population. What that means is that there's a lot of national health databases that collect all kinds of health outcomes for different populations. Muslims are not represented on those. So, like the Muslim identity where it's like you check your race, your age, whatever, faith identity is not included in that. And so, it's important to conduct research on Muslims, not just because we're not represented on those databases and we need to know how our health as a population, as a collective is doing and so we can kind of make interventions and hopefully promote better health for us as an entire collective. But of course, it's also very important because the Muslim demographic in the United States is scientifically a very interesting population to study and I'll tell you why. 

Number one, this country is headed to being of majority non-white population, 40, 20, 50. We're going to have also dual-language speaking citizens, like people who speaks Spanish and English. So, the immigrant kind of fabric of the United States is going to be a lot more prominent. And Muslims are a very ideal population to study scientifically because we are majority of migrant origin, so around 75% to 80% of us, according to Pew Research Center, is composed of first, second and third generation immigrants. Majority, first and second being, first, meaning you were born somewhere else and then you came to the United States. And then second generation, meaning, you were born in the United States, one of your parents or more were born somewhere else. And that's according to the US census definitions. 

So, when we think about what informs good mental health and preventing suicide, that's a very critical piece of information because being of migrant origin has been shown in some studies to have an effect on mental health. And especially for second generation people who are born in the United States, again, have at least one foreign-born parent. Their risk is especially of interest because they tend to be at higher risk than their parents for all sorts of negative health outcomes, not just mental health. But in suicide particularly, second generation is very critical because we have a lot of different factors which I can talk about. 

And then lastly, I would say also generally in the world population, Muslims are obviously like, there's billions of us. 

And on top of that, we're going to be facing climate change and there's going to be a shift in where people are located. And the impact of that is a lot of instability. There could be economic instability, political instability, and that can ultimately lead to poor health outcomes. So, it's important to kind of look outside and see like, “Wow--" you know around a quarter to a third, the estimates vary of the world's youth is going to be Muslim by 2030. 

Shehla: Right. 

Amelia: So, this is a very important matter because in the United States, we know that suicide is a leading cause of death-- a top three leading cause of death in young adults. So, Muslims could really be a very critical population to study in the research to get insights for now and to prevent future bad health outcomes.

Shehla: Right. That's a lot of information, Amelia. But we're going to cut it down piece by piece. I think if I had to start somewhere, like really making it bite sized, I thought it was very interesting when you said that second generation is most at risk. Okay, even before I get to that, let's go all the way back. You had said that Muslim demographics are hard to really pinpoint in terms of research. One of them is because surveys don't have religious identifier in them, they should have race, gender, all of those things, but never a religious identifier, that's one factor. Are there any other factors that would make Muslims particularly hard to pinpoint when it comes to such like a research?

Amelia: Shehla, I love that you asked that question, because one of the things that's a little bit of a pet peeve of mine as a scientist is that when we conduct research on Muslim mental health, researchers who identify as Muslim or otherwise, I think there's an assumption that people who end up responding to those calls for research, whether they're surveys or what have you, the assumption is that people do identify as Muslim or also it's conflated between identifying as Muslim and practicing or observing as--[audio cut]. And I think one thing that's a very critical point to underscore is that not all Muslims identify as Muslim. Maybe they were born Muslim and don't identify anymore, maybe they were raised Muslim and don't identify anymore, maybe they had converted but don't identify anymore. Those are critical populations and they might even-- who knows if they have a higher risk than generally Muslims who do identify as Muslim.

And so those factors are actually under this broader category of social factors of sociology and how people relate to their identity and relate to the collective ummah, if you are of Muslim identity and belonging. So, I think it's very critical because you might find different insights based on how strongly people value the Muslim identity for the-- [crosstalk]  

Shehla: Right. I think very important because again, like part of the reason I do my podcast is just that we are not one monolith. We exist in so many different ways, and then gathering information from that is-- dang. I mean, if you all doing it, I give you mad props because it's hard [laughs] under any circumstance. But again, second question, which sort of came to me first, is that you'd said, again, 2050, I've done research on this as well. I've done my master's papers, like most people, will be of dual races by 2050 and speaking more than one language within the United States, and that's the thing. I was sort of expecting in my mind like first generation immigrants would be at higher risk of suicide because it's such a new experience in a new country, leaving behind everything you knew, but you said that it's a greater risk in second generation, could you clarify that? Because I think a lot of people really don't perceive it as that. 

Amelia: Absolutely, yes. And I will say I don't know if it's dual race but definitely bilingual. And in terms of second generation, so I think the thing that's really important about that and you bring up the very important point of what we call the healthy immigrant paradox in public health. So, just like you said, why is it that people who come here to this country, some of them don't even speak the language, some of them do, but the cultural shock is there, the culture shock, the cultural norms. And then there's just a number of factors that you would think like people might become hopeless because [audio cut] but what's really important to know is a lot of times people who come to this country will have some kind of social support network. If they're coming in through certain verified migration processes, which generally tends to be the case in the Muslim community. You have undocumented, we do have unauthorized people who don't have papers. But at the same time, most of us don't experience that. And so, for those of us who don't experience that and do generally tend to come here and have either family or friends or some kind of connection here, it's been shown in the Latinx community, for example, that collectivist tradition is still there. And that's very important because when we think about what are factors that promote good health, resiliency, positive attitudes and positive perceptions, a lot of it has to do with your social support. 

So, when you think about what is the mentality of a first generation versus a second generation? Well, what's the norm? What's the social norm that they're coming with? Usually, back home in traditional culture in our home countries, it's predominantly a collectivist norm. Over here, it's more individualistic, in America, in the United States, in the West, Global North, if you will. So that poses a problem because the individualism can lead to a lot of isolation and it could also lead to lack of social support, quality social support. And in the scientific research, the way we measure that is not just by quantitatively how many people you have that might be able to help you out, like you need to text somebody, "Hey, can we grab something for dinner or can we talk really quick, I'm not feeling good?" that kind of thing, but it's also the quality of the social support. 

So, do you feel like you can trust somebody? Are they reliable for you? Are they consistent? And is it a positive relationship? Is it a positive bonding experience and not a negative bonding experience? So those things are really critical because when you're coming to the United States, it could be a very isolating experience. So, I'm not speaking in terms of like broadly because there is variation in what kind of experience you have, but in terms of what the data have pointed out, this is what makes it a paradox, is because you would think that with all those barriers you might have poor mental health, but there's also a lot of resiliency, a lot of survivalism. 

The way I like to explain it is like, people who are in the first generation, their main focus is not on belonging necessarily. Belonging is important and it's very critical, but in terms of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, what's important first is shelter and food and clothes, those things that are really important and making a good life to prepare for their children or offer their children good access to education, etc. So, that's usually what's on their mind. So, it's a hustle. It's a hustle mentality. Second generation, they're born here and American culture is familiar to them, what ends up becoming unfamiliar is the back home culture and the norms. 

And the very critical part about this, Shehla, this is the most important part, is a language difference, because there's some research that points to language differences leading to family conflict. Like if the person at home, the second-generation kid, doesn't know how to speak Urdu, for example, or doesn't know how to speak Spanish, that can create some problems because language itself is a representation of our mental constructs, of our social constructs. And so, there are certain words that exist in certain languages that don't exist in other languages. And so that is an example of even just how our worldview is shaped can be very different for the parents compared to the children. 

And then obviously there's family pressures that go into that for the second generation. The second generation is generally different than the first in terms of their hierarchy of needs. Maybe they don't have to worry about material hardship, like finding food or shelter. Maybe those needs have been met by that point, even if they're not so stable, but for the most part, there isn't a survivalist need the same as the first generation, but the second generation is more concerned about things like belongingness, identity and essentially being socially integrated. When you're not socially integrated, it can lead to isolation, which is a huge predictor of suicide. 

Shehla: That's so interesting. Again, it's one of the things that really doesn't come to mind immediately, but I'm glad you brought it up, it's an interesting point to really note, especially us of immigrant-- I mean, all myself, first generation, but again, I'd never thought of it that way for my kids, like, yeah, that could be a huge issue like how do they-- because again, my kids, I could speak to them in Urdu for all this word, they ain't going to pick it up, [chuckles] because it's natural their friends don't speak in Urdu, it's like I'm the only one yelling at them in Urdu whenever you go into mom mode. But, yeah, there is that inside the home it's different, but outside the home, the world exists so differently for them, as opposed to me. I grew up in Pakistan, everything was different, expectation, all these things were so different, so I can see how that creates so much pressure. 

So, you are here focusing on the Muslim population when it comes to this research, how did this sort of come about, the thought of this research, was it through your lift experience or were there other factors that sort of came into play that this is a need that you needed to fill? 

Amelia: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I will say one thing, but based on what you just said too is that it also matters for the first generation what age you came because when you were earlier, like younger, then the identity does play a lot more of a role than if you come after, like 25 years old or so or 20, when your identity is more set and you're developmentally more mature. 

In terms of what got me to Muslim mental health, yes, a lot of it was lived experience, but I wasn't very open about my lived experience in the beginning. So, I started grad school in 2015. I actually had to defer because I ended up getting married and getting pregnant right away. And so, I ended up deferring. I thought I was going to do maternal mental health in humanitarian settings, had nothing to do with being Muslim; although, I was hoping to serve in Muslim majority countries. And over the course of that year that I had deferred, my spouse was in a grad program doing his doctorate on critical race theory and special education. And over that year, it was the first year of our marriage, essentially, he was like a big mentor for me because I started learning about white supremacy and I started-- and the 2016 election was right around the corner. And so, I felt like I had this crash course in how the United States fabric of social norms was going on. 

And I started my grad program, and about the first semester and after the first semester, I emailed the administrators. I was like, "There's a lot of Islamophobia going on. I feel like a really strong need to change my major, my department, my thesis advisor, my thesis topic." Literally everything flipped upside down. And I was like, "I need to do something about this because Muslim mental health, like, who cares about this? Who's caring? Where are the voices? Where are the stories?" And most of all, I felt like my particular story was very underrepresented because I was a young parent as well. 

And the Muslim mental health field, although it had already existed, like the Journal of Muslim Mental Health had at that point, I think, been around for maybe like over half a dozen years. So that had been around, but there wasn't any research on being visibly Muslim, like wearing a headscarf or other markers that generally tend to speak Muslim identity in American society. So, I was like, "Let me see if there's any connection between this visibility and having any symptoms of mental illness, like depression or stress or anxiety." And that's what it did turn out to have in terms of, not necessarily visibility, but just being Muslim and female, for example. So, females were way more hypervigilant than males. 

The reason I included hypervigilance in that study was because at that time, I was wearing hijab. So, I had worn hijab for about five years until basically my body just developed this disability called POTS. And it's a longer story, but I ended up having to let go of hijab. And so, during that time, I was like, "This is New York, this is super diverse, and people are welcoming here." But then I saw MAGA hats all over at the same time. And so, I was like, "I'm not the only one suffering, I'm not the only one thinking, like, being hijabi might put me at risk for a hate crime," and so that's what inspired that study. And by the time I ended up graduating and writing my master's thesis, I ended up presenting that study at the American Public Health Association conference, and I ended up applying to doctoral programs without necessarily thinking I was going to go down that route. But I felt such a strong inclination to do something about it. 

And then in my grad program, I ended up doing a Fellowship for Trauma and Violence research where I got exposed to a whole bunch of different communities, like Native American communities, LGBTQ communities that had really high rates of suicide. And my advisor mentioned it. She was like, "You should do something on suicide." And I just felt like it was a bad idea because I was like, “Muslims and suicide in the same sentence have always, never been like a good state.” It's not a good reflection of us, like it's airing our dirty laundry, why would I go to do that? 

But throughout the course of my grad program, I started just realizing like-- I felt like no one would take Muslim mental health seriously enough unless there was a dramatic outcome like suicide. And that's a really sad thing to say, but that's just what I feel like it was going to take because I knew that I was suicidal, all right, let's just put that. I knew at that point I had really severely suicidal. I didn't actually think I was depressed for a really long time. I was like, "I'm not depressed, I'm functional, I'm this, I'm now in grad school." But the more I started learning scientifically about the research behind suicide, that was really part of what motivated me too, because I needed answers. I need answers, "Why am I so suicidal all the time? Why?" And I know that maybe some other people, like my friends and stuff, they're not saying it, but we share similar lived experiences of discrimination, of oppression, microaggressions. So, if we're sharing those lived experiences, I can't be the only one who's suicidal here. 

So, that's what ultimately got me into going to my first Suicide Prevention Conference because another advisor invited me to it. And that particular conference was actually focused only on Latinx population. That moment, though, that was a life changing moment for me in May, was it 2019, I believe. Yeah, I think I went to that conference in May 2019, and the Latinx researchers that were up there, they were talking about all the things that we're talking about. The Muslim ban was so similar to the deportation conversations they were having. And I was like, our population has so many parallel similarities as the Latinx non-Muslim population that I was like, "Okay, we really need to do something about this." And that's when the momentum started and I was like, "This is it, I'm doing this." And by November of 2019, I started my social media channel Muslim Suicide Researcher. 

Shehla: Hmm-mm. And again, I can't stress enough how important this is as somebody who has also experienced suicidal ideation, it's not something you're completely prepared for, especially within Muslim context where there is serious taboo regarding the subject. It's so unspoken of that anybody could get to a dangerous point before realizing that they need help. Mental health is poorly understood as well, things that could really push a person to do this. But it is definitely, definitely an important thing that does need to be highlighted, researched effectively, so that people who are struggling, like you and me, we can get the help we need, so what are you doing currently, Amelia? That's the thing. That's where it all boils down to, what's happening right now and how is your research progressing? 

Amelia: Yes. So, what is happening right now, we do know that there was one study by Stanford and Dr. Rania Awaad's lab and Dr. Hamada Hamid at Yale and their colleagues that suggested Muslims, compared to other faith groups, have a higher odd of attempting suicide in their lifetime compared to other faith groups. And I think that was a launching point for a lot of the initiatives that we're seeing today in the United States Muslim community. My research in particular is less so focused on faith-based factors, although that is a part of my research and it's a very, very important part of research, let me tell you. Prayer, spirituality, those are extremely important for your mental health. 

However, my research is a little bit more complementary from what has been done in the past in terms of social factors. So, like I said earlier, that identity of being Muslim, that in and of itself is a huge factor related to whether or not someone has risk of XYZ disease or outcome or suicide. And I'll tell you why, it's because your social identity sometimes corresponds to your behaviors, so people who are socioeconomically disadvantaged may be more likely to behave in criminal ways. Like, for example, theft, for their survival. But if you're not socioeconomically disadvantaged, you might also be a thief [chuckles] and have more like, I don't know. 

Shehla: Kleptomania is real. 

[laughter]

Amelia: Yeah, but it's just not coming from a survival perspective, and is as a high-status person. And generally, people with high status want to be favored and retain their high status. So they're not going to be engaging in those types of behaviors unless there are like Donald Trump, who's just criminal and just does [onomatopoeia]. But I'm saying also in terms of risky behaviors. So, people who are marginalized or stigmatized and just generally feel more invisibilized by society, they could also tend to have more risky behaviors. And that can be a lot of Muslims. We are stigmatized. I mean, I think there's been a lot of work going against stigmatizing us and kind of allowing us to be included in the normal image of who an American is and what an American stands for. But the work that we're doing in terms of preventing suicide in the future, that's what you're saying is the work of social norms change because change social norms, you can change behaviors. When you change behaviors, you change society. And it has a lot to do, it has a lot to do with who is in power and what type of norms the people in power want to purvey. So, a common example, what was her name? Who is the one who was in Breakfast at Tiffany's? 

Shehla: Oh, jeez. Audrey Hepburn. 

Amelia: Yeah, Audrey Hepburn.

Shehla: I don't even know why I know this, but still. [laughs]

Amelia: Yes, so she popularized, you could say she popularized eating sushi because there was a picture of her eating sushi, and she's a high-class, high-socioeconomic, celebrity-status person and she's eating sushi. And what was sushi at the time, when she was alive. But the fact that someone like that brought that into popular culture made it a social norm over time. And these are things that are very important because suicide in this country has become normalized, if I might say that. Because at this point, Shehla, subhanallah, this is what happens. I don't know if it's just like me, but I was driving around Baltimore, and just on the train stop, there was this advertisement saying, “988 crisis hotline, if you need help.” And then I see it just like randomly everywhere now. I just see it everywhere. 

And as someone who's a social behavioral scientist, I feel like that is a reflection of our society, that this problem has become endemic, not an outbreak, not an epidemic, it's an endemic, and that means that it's been going on for a while, and we're treating it as if it's not going to go away anytime soon, that's what an endemic is. And so, in terms of where the future goes, I think Muslim mental health, suicide prevention has a lot of potential to change the world and change social norms. 

Shehla: And I couldn't agree with you more, because the thing is, when-- the popular discourse is that “we didn't have it in our time, why is it now?” But the problem is that suicide has always existed since the beginning of time, since the beginning of people, suicide has always existed. But the problem is that for so long we've done very little about preventing it or even acknowledging that it is a problem. And then it gets to a point where it just spills over if you don't do anything about it.

Amelia: Oh, yeah, you have to [audio cut] acknowledge it. That's the first thing you can't prevent something you don't acknowledge. 

Shehla: So, yeah, that's the thing. Now we have to come to terms with it, not just as Muslim, but as society at large, that this is a problem and we need to do more to find out the whys and prevent the whys or fix the whys. And it's not one thing, it's not just like “mental wellness, you're cured, you're not going to--” There's so many factors that even step into mental wellness, not just like, "I have a family history of anxiety, if you get rid of anxiety that stops all the problems." People, as you'd said, lower socioeconomic status, there's a lot of pressure, people are doing multiple jobs, still can't make ends meet, that's a huge factor in mental wellness going down. All those things, there's multiple factors, as you said, environmental factors. 

I stay up scared a lot of nights, being like, what kind of earth are my kids going to inherit? Because we've done so many things that are wrong. All of these things are huge factors that need to be fixed before we can say, "Yeah, suicide is no longer endemic." And I think the work you do is so crucial, especially for the Muslim community. So please let us into, what you're doing right now. I know you have a survey out, so what does the survey focus on? I'll have a link to that survey in my show notes, so that Muslims who really want to help, you can help you, please. And it's anonymous, I believe. You don't have to put in names or any identifiers, but just the experience and what you experience in a sort of a suicidal ideation or if you've attempted suicide, just that information is so helpful for you. So please give us a little more detail about the survey that you have out. 

Amelia: Yes, so thank you so much. The point of doing this survey is really to just get the word out there that we are doing something about this problem and hopefully Inshallah. The survey isn't the most ideal format because you're behind the screen. But I had to adapt a lot of my research aims for COVID because I had begun this research right when COVID hit, so I had to change a lot of what that research looked like. So, it went from in person stuff to just online. And then it also-- and then I ended up thinking, “Well, you're online, you're more anonymous.” But some people, I don't know, I had to think a lot about even just being online because there's trolls out there, so I had to be careful about where I disseminate the study and only with people and I trust. I ended up partnering with Family Youth Institute, which I'm sure you're familiar with, FYI. Mashallah, they're doing great work, and they have supported me for this study. And so we've been trying to recruit. I also got support from MSA West with that organization, they're also helping me recruit. But I haven't had a lot of responses because we've gone through the email newsletters. 

The survey itself, you don't have to even answer all the questions. You can just skip all the questions that you don't feel like answering, So, in the beginning, you'll see some demographic questions, and then you'll see questions related to your identity as Muslim or other intersectional markers of your identity. And then you'll also see questions related to your psychological health. There's going to be questions about mood. Then there is also questions just about your overall experiences. And so then there's open-ended questions where you can type and respond like what has made you feel hopeless in life, and that's been a really good question for people to respond to because that's a very critical point where we can find interventions. 

And so, the point of this survey is to start an infrastructure really. To start an overall infrastructure for people who are interested in developing evidence-based, community-based programming maybe. These are the types of the insights that come from this research. I was hoping it would lead to getting-- going to Muslim leaders and saying, here's what I'm finding, maybe we can optimize some of your programs to include addressing so and so topic. There's in public health one of the approaches we've used is in terms of faith-based practice research, going to the sermons and having sermons actually be public health infused. 

So, in terms of like khutbahs, that would look like an imam talking about suicide prevention on the Friday of whatever, you know like just. And these are really important conversations to have because I think when-- The research is one thing, but people have to value you as a researcher, and I think that's the part I've had the most difficulty with Shehla. I will say, "I don't know if it's that I don't wear hijab," or like, "I don't know what it-- Maybe it's not me, maybe it's just the research itself. I don't know what it is." But I think that people don't necessarily understand the value of social and behavioral science and that's really important because one of the big things about COVID that people didn't realize initially is that your social networks have a lot to do with how much at risk you are of getting COVID. Social network, that's a social and behavioral approach to preventing the spread of COVID. 

And social distancing, that's a term that came from our field. Physical distancing that came from our field. Our field was critical in handling and managing the COVID epidemic. And the same applies to any health outcome, especially suicide. Especially because suicide can be contagious and lead to contagion or in other words, one person's suicide can make other people feel suicidal and attempt suicide and actually die by suicide. 

Shehla: Wow

Amelia: So, I think if I were to say one thing, it's just that this research, I mean, I don't have a lot of responses to my survey right now. I only have 25 responses to my survey. I needed at least 200. In the past, in the research I told you about the Muslim visibility, I had almost 400 people respond to me. I had no problem collecting that data because it happened right around the Trump election, so there was a lot of momentum. And survey research wasn't as popularized back in 2016. But now, it's 2023, It's like, almost a full decade later, and research has become really popularized. But people still in the Muslim community, who do we have? You tell me, Shehla, how many times have you seen a speaker at a conference at ISNA, at ICNA, at MAS, who's a sociologist?

Shehla: Again, I'd be very hard pressed for that. 

Amelia: And they exist, I know them, I know Muslim sociologists, they've got PhD in sociology, and now even I'm not a rare unicorn because I actually met someone who's studying at Harvard now who's a first year in social behavioral sciences. And she's Muslim. she wears hijab and everything, mashallah. So, I was like, "Wow, great, now there's going to be more of us." But at the same time, it hasn't been valued. Like, our knowledge, our approach sometimes also can, I think, be very scandalous because we're talking about issues related to social identity, gender, race, faith. Those things can be already so sensitive, let alone suicide. And so, I feel like I wish I had the trust from Muslim leadership to be like, "Hey, this person knows their stuff, they've been highly qualified, they've been trained at UCLA, they've been trained at Columbia University, they've been trained at Johns Hopkins University, they literally have on paper like every credential you could ask for," and yet, I feel like my voice hasn't had a place in the community, because I think it's just we aren't familiar with what-- this field.

Shehla: There's so many different factors to it, Amelia, that the sociology aspect is one that we're like, so what does that-- it's not like a doctorate, engineer, okay. Y'all ain't making money. [laughs] Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way. But we are drawn to all of these doctors, engineer, IT, it's the money makers, like, “What does a sociologist do?” I don't know. There's very little real knowledge about the importance of what a sociologist does, there really isn't. Second of all, there is, like, even in the broader context, people don't like talking about social issues, they don't. It makes them very uncomfortable. It's like digging up parts of themselves that they'd rather sweep under the rug. Suicide? Girl, that's one of those things that's like in the deepest recesses of that poor rug that we sweep in a lot of things under, so it's definitely not just because of you per se, it's just like we as a community are sort of socially constructed to be within bubbles, within bubbles, within bubbles. But I'm hoping that this can change that because your survey is so essential. It's going to be in my show notes, every Muslim who's listening to this-- “Oh, before I forget, is this just open to Muslims within the US because, I have listeners abroad as well, would they be able to take the survey? 

Amelia: It is. The eligibility criteria is to be in the United States, and I can't say much more about the eligibility criteria because it might affect things. Yeah, it might affect a lot of stuff that makes this data valid. Go to the link, it's just tinyurl.com/muslimcommunitystudy and it'll take you directly to there. The incentive is a $25 visa gift card lottery,-

Shehla: Woo.

Amelia: -which if I end up having 100 respondents, everyone's probably going to get the gift card. So, it's not like there's a low chance of you getting it. And it's not the lottery that I'm hoping people are incentivized by. I really hope that people-- Especially people who've experienced suicide in terms of their lived experience, maybe they themselves have had struggles or ideation, maybe they have a friend or a loved one who's had struggles. Maybe they know someone who passed away. Maybe they know of someone in the community who they may not have known personally, but someone in the community had died by suicide. Those are people that we really need to hear from because I have big plans Shehla, inshallah, I have big plans for understanding and helping our community. And I think that part of what has really kind of brought me down over the years is not knowing if there's enough trust for me to do the research that I'm doing, which is community-based participatory research is a very particular type of research, CBPR, it's an approach and it's a social justice framework, but in order to do it, you need to have trust in the community and the community needs to essentially be very comfortable with you and feel safe around you, so I've worked really hard to try and build rapport with the community, especially through my social media channel. I was like, “Maybe this is a strategy I could use to try and show people the value of the research I'm doing.” And social media channel is part of that strategy. 

And obviously going to the Muslim Mental Health Conference, I've presented there a number of times. Alhamdulillah, I've had a good amount of support from people who attend the conference. So, I do feel like there are some people in critical gatekeeping positions. But I think on the ground from grassroots, like masjid or third space perspective, that's where I'm really missing a lot of connection and I would really appreciate being connected to the imams and the masjid leadership boards and the third spaces, the people who do the nonprofit works or just in general, like Being Muslim, Islamic Relief and Helping Hands, whatever. These people, they're all really well connected in the community and I'd love to kind of connect with them and see if they could send a survey out. 

And we're really looking for a lot of things in this research. One is we want to test generational differences, so we want to get a wide range of people who of age ranges. So, from 18 years old up to however old you are, I'd love to see it. Also, we want to see if there's any differences based on your identity. We want to see if there's any differences based on your language. These are all really, really important factors because at the end of the day, we want to see what can be extrapolated to other communities who are hard to reach, like Latina-- or I'm sorry, other communities who are marginalized or invisible, underrepresented. 

So, because the study was funded by NIMHD, National Institute of Health, Minority Health Disparities, part of the argument was that studying Muslims will help us understand other groups who are not white or just in general, not privileged. 

Shehla: Right. Now again, the survey and I'm hoping that all those who are Muslims, that they take the survey, that I have put the link in the show notes. But to everybody, I would love for them to be able to follow you, to give you some of the perspective that you need, maybe give you the connections that you need. So please tell us where people can find you on social media and how they follow you. 

Amelia: Yes, also you don't have to have any mental illness experience to take the survey. We need to have people who have also good mental health too. You can follow me on @muslim.suicide.researcher, Instagram and TikTok. I believe my stuff gets forwarded to Facebook. I'm not very active on Facebook anymore. Because suicide is so much afflicting young people, I do try to target-- more, like on TikTok, for example, I do try to target the audience more. And I am very passionate about youth suicide prevention, young adult suicide prevention, because it goes from between age 10 to 35 is generally the age range we look for. But suicide actually happens as young as five years old, which is really sad. And it has shown up as a leading cause of death even at five to nine years age group in some Asian-American demographics. So, and according to CDC data from the past five years. 

So, it is very critical to get wide age representation also, good mental health representation, even if you don't have any experience with suicide or depression or whatever, just take it because we need reference groups. We need to compare something to somebody, and we need to have a reference group. 

So, the more people, the more diversity there is. We need more black respondents, we need more Latinx respondents, we need more converts, we need more first-generation immigrants, we need more indigenous Muslims. We need people who are socioeconomically disadvantaged. We need people who may have experienced houselessness. We need people who may have experienced intimate partner violence, narcissistic abuse, people who've gone to Islamic school, people who haven't gone to Islamic school, people who've gone to public school in the United States from K-12. People who pray five times a day. People who don't pray. These are the differences that I'm going to be testing for, so these are the type of people that we really need to get, and especially people in the Muslim community who are invisibilized, queer Muslims, trans Muslims. Yo, I'm out here, I'm trans, I'm nonbinary, I'm gender fluid. So, I feel like it's important to get that representation. People who are multiracial, people who are biracial, so people who've never had a suicide attempt. So inshallah I hope that that covers the wide range of what this survey is trying to get at. 

Shehla: I hope so. And I hope that people who are listening will seriously take the survey. We need the information. We need to create pathways of help. And I'm so glad that you're helping to do that, Amelia. I'm so grateful for that. So, to everybody, please, who are Muslims, take the survey, she needs the demographic. She needs all the things to bring all of this. 

Amelia: It's our work though, it's not my work. One thing I always say to people, sorry to cut you off, but it's our work, suicide prevention is a collective responsibility. So, when you put your little nugget of information, saving one life is as if saving all of humanity, as Allah [unintelligible 00:48:15] in the Quran. So, it feels like it's my work, but I'm just a conduit and I do feel like I'm doing Allah's work, God's work is in my-- it's just what I was born to do, that's how I see it. But it's not only my responsibility, we all have a responsibility. And if the only thing you can do is share the survey, then you've done your work. 

Shehla: Right.  Now, thank you so much, Amelia, and thank you to everybody who's listened in and watched us on YouTube. Y'all take care of yourself, take care of your mental health, and may peace be on you all. 

Amelia: Salam alaikum.

[I'm A Muslim (And That's Okay!) outro] 

Shehla: Thank you so much for tuning in to I'm a Muslim And That's Okay. And if you wish to follow my social media for more updates, you can follow me on Instagram, on Facebook and on YouTube. All the links to those are in the show notes. And if you are on Apple or on Spotify or on Podchaser, please do give my podcast a five-star rating. It really does help get me in the public eye. And if you wish to donate to support the podcast, you can do so through the PayPal link in my show notes as well.  Take care.