Gift of the Gab with Dr. Uzma Jafri: Discussing How to Protest Safely

Shehla: Hi, everyone. May peace be on you all, and welcome to another episode of I'm A Muslim (And That's Okay!). As always, I'm your host, Shehla. And I am back with a returning guest, Dr. Uzma Jafri, who I love and who's also a fellow podcaster. She cohosts the Mommying While Muslim podcast, and I love her to bits. And please tell us a little more about yourself, Uzma. What do you do as a doc? 

Uzma Jafri: Oh, what do I do as a doc? Well, when I introduce myself, Salamalekum, everybody. Shalom Salam Peace to everyone. I am Uzma Jafri. I am a mom of four kiddos. And in my free time, I'm a doctor. Family medicine, geriatrics. I do less family medicine. I've just gotten right back into it this year. But geriatrics is what I've primarily been practicing for the last 12 years, taking care of, I think, the best generation ever. [Shehla laughs] Sometimes they're old and crotchety, but I really love them. 

Shehla: Yeah. 

Uzma Jafri: That's what I do.

Shehla: They're the sweet old people.

Uzma Jafri: Yes. And even the mean ones, I just think they're so funny. [Shehla laughs] They get mad at such interesting things. When I point it out to them in a very gentle, loving way, they're like, “Okay, all right. Fine.” So everybody is teachable, and I think that gives us all hope. We're all teachable. 

Shehla: Yeah. I hope so, Uzma. 

Uzma Jafri: In sha Allah. [giggles] 

Shehla: Because the way things have been going on, you're sitting there like, “Dear God, there is a genocide happening, and y'all are still questioning this.” And that's part of the reason why I have you here, Uzma, is because not just that you're fantastic mom of four, you're practicing medicine with sweet old people. Is that you are very active when it comes to the social aspect of a lot of things? You go to protests, and you recently got arrested, just for reference. How did that happen and what did you do? If that happened to me, I'd be scared stiff. But what did you do and what happened? 

Uzma Jafri: So sometimes when we're talking about activism, that's protests, that's demonstrations, that's going to rallies, that's making the phone calls, writing the letters, all of that is, I think, civil disobedience and exercising your civil rights. But then you have things like direct actions. Direct actions are when you are intentionally disrupting something every day. Business as usual is not going to be usual because of your action, your direct action. So the direct action that I participated in was a sit in at my senator's office. Of course, he was in D.C. And of course, we knew he was not going to meet our demands, but we had requested. We were like, “We're not going to leave until we get a phone call.” And he tells us that he will call for a ceasefire. That was before the humanitarian pause, which is such an oxymoron. 

Shehla: Yeah.

Uzma Jafri: I believe people think that that's two words you could put together. But before that pause is when we did that. And so while there were 60 people, we were protesting outside of the office, the people that had decided to risk arrest, there was 10 of us out of those 60. The office people were really nice. His staff were great. But at some point, they're like, “Okay, well, now we have to warn you that we're asking you to leave. And if you don't, that we have to call the authorities.” And we were like, “You do what you got to do. We're going to be here.” It was very peaceful. We were singing, we were chanting, we were praying together. For the first time, I got to hear like a Jewish kaddish, because one of our risk arrest people, actually two of them, ascribed to the Jewish faith. So it was a very hodgepodge group of activists. 

Then the police showed up and they arrested us. It was this big show of tactical force [Shehla laugh] for like 50 or 60 like real buff, totally armed officers. They brought their assault weapons. They left them in the car when they realized how stupid they would look-- [crosstalk]

Shehla: Yeah.

Uzma Jafri: We're completely peaceful. Completely cooperative. 

Shehla: But for the record, Uzma is a pretty tall person. So you know-- [crosstalk]

Uzma Jafri: I am tall.

[laughter] 

Uzma Jafri: So, both of my officers were shorter than me, it was hard. After I have handcuffs and behind my back, they're like, “Do you have anything that's in your pocket that you're going to poke me with, Ma'am. Do you want a female officer to frisk you?” I just looked down at him and I was like, “There is nothing I would want to poke you with, Officer.” Yeah, I think the entire process took like 30 minutes, maybe. 25 of those minutes, the officers were lost getting back to the precinct. 

Shehla: Oh, my God. 

Uzma Jafri: But we got tickets for a Class 3 misdemeanor trespassing charge, which is super easy. When you're participating in direct actions like this, it's usually very highly organized and highly coordinated. So before we even reached the precinct, the lawyers were already on it. The lawyers had been filming the whole time. One even got arrested with us. And their office does all of this work pro bono to get activists out of any legal trouble. 

Shehla: Oh, wow.

Uzma Jafri: There's a jail team that picks you up if you actually go to jail. There's always a debrief after there's always spiritual support and social support, because it can be traumatic-

Shehla: Oh, yeah.

Uzma Jafri: -for some people, no matter how many times they've done it before. This is my first time getting arrested. I've been to protests where I've been in some kind of a direct action, but never gotten myself arrested because I was always too scared to do it. I don't know, this time was different. 

Shehla: That in itself is incredible. And that's why I have you here, because apart from the fact that you were part of the sit and got arrested, I want specific details on other aspects of that. But you've been trained about how to safely participate in things like protests. I think a lot of people don't understand that there is a certain methodology to when you're protesting, whatever you are protesting. Like for me, I'm just taking my flag, my flyer, and we're just chanting. But there is a methodology to it, if you're doing it on a frequent basis, to do this safely. So please, if you could, give us a little bit of a rundown. How is it done? How do people, especially now, when everybody wants to protest what's happening in Palestine, how do we do it safely? 

Uzma Jafri: Yeah. Those are great questions. So the first thing I would say is check your intention. Like, if you're going there because it's the popular thing to do, or my friends are doing it, or if I don't say something, I'm going to look bad, so you're worried about your reputation in any way, then you know, you got a problem. You probably shouldn't go. And then the second tenet of protesting or going outside of your home and the safety of your home to do one of these actions, even if it's just a march, even if it's just a rally, go with a buddy. Do not go alone. 

Depending on the kind of protest you're at, sometimes there will be a police presence. And I have seen in those chaotic situations what happens to people who are all by themselves, you can get disoriented, it can be very frightening, it can cause a panic attack, or even worse. So I think you always buddy up if you can go in groups. It's better. It helps with parking too, because these are usually central locations that you're going to, and parking is an issue, and just there's safety in numbers. That's why you're all together at a protest. But also, you yourself do not go as an individual go with at least one other person and stay together. 

The other thing that I would recommend is to find out who the organizers are. And typically, at these rallies and protests is the people with the megaphones. That’s an organizer, and they have a team of people around them. So find them and follow their lead. So whatever they're telling you to do, you need to follow those directions. Because a lot of times, they're the ones that have secured the permits. They're the ones that have talked to local authorities to make sure what you can and cannot do. You can say whatever you want, there's free speech, but usually, they're leading you in chance, right?

Shehla: Right.

Uzma Jafri: And it's a big pet peeve of mine, when unaffected peoples are trying to take over the lead from the affected peoples. I'm not Palestinian. So I always say, “Take the lead from Palestinians.” And I find myself apologizing a lot, because I'm like, “Is this, okay? Is this, okay? I'm sorry.” There is such a thing as misappropriation of indignation. We're all indignant. We're all Palestinian at some level we grew up knowing this. But it's really important to let them lead the charge. They usually have a media point person already selected. So if you see a reporter and they ask you, “Hey, can I ask you,” blah, blah, blah? No, they already have their talking points. They already know what's up. Direct them to the media person. They usually have a special color on. Say, that's the person you want to talk to, especially if you're not Palestinian, shh, okay? 

When it comes to Palestine, there's a specific thing that now has a term, it's called doxxing. And so if you're afraid of being doxed, we're recommending everybody wear a mask to cover your identity. If you have any kind of insignia on you that says your name or has an identifier, cover it up, because if doxxing would hurt you or hurt your livelihood or threaten your family, then you want to make sure that you get that done. But I would argue that any kind of protest, regardless of where you're going, make sure you mask up for COVID purposes and infectious disease purposes, as well as you want to hide your identity and not let yourself get identified for no good reason. And again, this goes back to your intention, right?

Shehla: Right.

Uzma Jafri: Like, am I doing this to be known, or am I doing this to create that show of numbers? 

Shehla: Solidarity numbers, basically. 

Uzma Jafri: Yeah, exactly. And then there are certain things when there is danger that's coming that you need to do, and I don't know, if you want me to get into that yet. 

Shehla: Sure. Let's do it, Uzma. 

Uzma Jafri: Yeah? Okay. So if it's going to be something where you're going, there's lots of protests where there are snipers. Especially, if a president is visiting or some high official is visiting, you will see snipers, Secret Service is there, the police are coming in that riot gear and military gear, and they're getting ready. There's a couple of things that they can do to protesters, and one is called kettling. When you see that happening, what they're doing is coming from different directions and boxing them in, because they're trying to make arrest. So if you see that-- And a lot of the organizers and the parties associated with them, who run with them and organize with them, they will start alerting you. They will start alerting the organizers, and the organizers will start announcing, “We're moving this way.” You do not ask questions. You do not-- [crosstalk] 

Shehla: You just move.

Uzma Jafri: “This is my comfortable corner.” Shut up. Follow the organizers. That is the safest thing to do. If anybody with a megaphone directs you somewhere, you go. If you have a medical condition, a proper organized protest, especially at these high-level official ones, will have a medic team there. They are very clearly marked with a cross of some kind. Take your asthma inhalers, whatever you need. Also take your own N95 mask. The medics will have some, but they will quickly run out, especially if you only have one medic in your vicinity. But always know where they are and always know where your security personnel is. They are also clearly marked. So the protesters also have their own security team monitoring and making sure, “Hey, when they tell you to move, you move. No questions.” That's how you stay safe. 

Another thing that you may see is depending on the city that you're in-- I happen to be in a city where the police department is known as one of the most violent in the country. And so they have a device called an LRAD. Looks like a satellite dish, and it's on top of a van. Once you see the police presence, period, even without that van with the satellite dish on top of it, that's not taking pictures, that's not doing anything. Make sure your phone is turned off, like completely turn it off because they do have signal jammers on there. This is hard, because how are you going to communicate outside,-

Shehla: Outside.

Uzma Jafri: -especially if you're alone, right? 

Shehla: Right. 

Uzma Jafri: So, that's why it's important to be with that partner so that each of you is responsible for the other. 

Shehla: Other person. 

Uzma Jafri: So, there's that buddy system going on. We also turn the phones off because we don't know and we can't prove that those scanners, those jammers are not just jamming your signal, they're not also pulling data because they have that capability. So, you don't want them to see any of that. 

Shehla: Sure. 

Uzma Jafri: The LRAD, what it does is the direction that it's facing is sending like the sonic signal that can burst your eardrums. 

Shehla: Ooh, damn. 

Uzma Jafri: So when you see that come out, make sure you're on the other side of it. Not on the concave side, but on this side. 

Shehla: Right. Behind it, basically. 

Uzma Jafri: Behind it, but I would argue, just leave. 

Shehla: Away from it. 

Uzma Jafri: If you see that. the police are planning to tear gas, the police are planning-

Shehla: Ooh, damn.

Uzma Jafri: -to kettle, and the police are planning to arrest you. When you see that device, you go. They have used this in actions across the country. It is, I would argue, a type of physical warfare in civilians. 

Shehla: Oh, yeah.

Uzma Jafri: This is not something that was done. Maybe they didn't have the technology in the 1970s, but it's crazy. But they can't water hose us, like they did back in the 1970s. So this is what they found instead. This can reach for blocks, the sound, which is why I say, run. If you see this kind of situation where there's tactical officers and snipers and LRADs and all that, and you have kids with you, that is not the protest to bring kids to. Don’t do it. We've seen people get injured. We've seen people have respiratory issues because they're too little to handle the tear gas. And then older adults as well. If you have any kind of mobility issues, I know everybody wants to do something. But if you see those kinds of danger signs, either stay on the periphery where you know exactly how to exit, or don't go. And that's the best that I can say only because the most vulnerable is what we're concerned about. 

The medics need to take care of the people who are in it, are ready to do it. If you get tear gassed, that's when the masks come on. The N95 won't do as much, especially if the tear gas gets in your eyes. So the thing to do that is just to flush it out with water really, really well. If you happen to be out of water, usually these protests, again, they're highly organized, so they have a lot of water supply is ready. It's not accessible physically to you right that moment, and you're blind. Having the water and your buddy is really useful, so that you can get your eyes flushed out. And never, ever pick up a tear gas canister because it can cause second- or third-degree burns. 

Shehla: Burns. Yeah.

Uzma Jafri: Yeah. So that's really, really important. So that's why people use tennis rackets and stuff to kick it back. And the most common thing that I've seen is people coming up to accost you, counter-protesters. 

Shehla: Yeah. That's what I was wondering, because even the protests over here in Dallas, you hear the rumors that there are counter-protesters. What do you do about that? 

Uzma Jafri: Okay. So there's counter-protesters that are 100% going to infiltrate the protest lines. They will come in and they will put cameras in your faces and ask you something like, in this situation, since we're talking about Palestine, “Do you condemn Hamas?” And they'll be like this close in your face. I think for me, it was something about Arabs are terrorists, or all Muslims are terrorists. And again, he was a really tiny guy with little man syndrome [Shehla laughs] and he's like-- He's having to put his arm up to show. I'm trying not to laugh at him, but I just put on a very deadpan face. My arms are folded, and I'm just looking down at him, and he's videoing me, and I told him, “You do not have permission to video me.” 

But other than that, I did not engage with him. I did not touch his phone. I did not swat it out of his hand. I think it is really critical in this moment not to react, because that is exactly what they want. Because they're trying to prove, funnily enough, that the people who are pro-Palestinian are the terrorists, because they're pro-Hamas, even if they're not pro-Hamas. But those same people are the ones that are running people over, saying, “Why are you Hamas? You're terrorists.” They are the same people who are shooting three innocent armed boys and paralyzing one before reach us. But the boys were terrorists? No. So do not let them look good in any way. People who are stupid will always implode. People who are wrong will always implode. Let them do it publicly. Let them do it publicly. It is beautiful. 

Shehla: [giggles] 

Uzma Jafri: Now what you will see, because counter-protesters are usually a smaller number-- Sometimes they can be big, and I've seen them both ways. Interestingly enough, when the police have the shields and the barricades, the counter-protesters are behind them. 

Shehla: Oh, that's interesting. 

Uzma Jafri: So a lot of that is because police departments are notoriously and historically complicit with the counter-protesters, who are typically either fascist or capitalist or just on the wrong side of history. So if they stand behind the police, those are usually the bad guys. I've not seen a PD that has protected protesters who are legitimately protesting for a cause that is a humanitarian cause that any of our causes. They have never stood to protect us. So violence will happen, especially young, hot-blooded people. Some people don't disengage and don't walk away. They hold their ground. And when somebody's spitting in your face that close, things can get violent. I've seen an ear torn as a result, but it was not-- You always want to be the person who is not instigating that situation. 

If anybody's going to throw the first punch, let the counter-protester do it. Make sure it's documented. That's a lot of what the legal team is doing is documenting what's happening, so that they can bear testimony to it later. But have your phone ready to record. This is really important. Again, why a buddy is really useful? So somebody has their phone to just record. I guess you could turn it on for that, but then you would have to shut down, get rid of all of your social media, like, take those off the home screen. And any personal information you have on there, you don't want them to have access to. So that kind of violence can happen. Can it escalate? Yeah, we've seen protests where there's people driving right through protesters. Now, how can you eliminate that possibility? This is why your security team is so critical. A good security team will see that coming and will accommodate for that so in ideal situations and get the call out to safety as soon as possible. 

Shehla: Again, not all protests are like that, but there is a chance that some protests will have counter-protesters. So what's your recommendation on taking children to a protest? 

Uzma Jafri: Yeah. I also gauge it, so I know that-- For instance, during the Black Lives Matter protest in my city, there were fires started. I think nobody knows exactly who started it to this day, but it got really scary. This was also during COVID time. This was also when my daughter was hospitalized, so I could see the fires from the hospital. That obviously would not be something I would take my kids to. I personally would choose not to take my kids to any protest that is downtown. In my little neighborhood city, we have like a small-town center. I would feel completely comfortable doing that. We participated in the Black Lives march here. It was smaller. It was safer, because there was less COVID risk too, at that moment with the smaller group. So, it was still a beautiful thing. We still got honks of appreciation. We still got honks of, “Shut up, you guys are terrorists.”

[laughter] 

[crosstalk] favorite word. Like, for Black Lives Matter? That's terrorist? I don't know, man. But yeah, basically, that was in my neighborhood. So that tells you how scary and how necessary the Black Lives Matter movement still is. In any case, there are certain things like vigils and rallies. Those are also forms of civil disobedience and I think civil protests. I would feel very comfortable taking my kids to a vigil. I would feel very comfortable taking my kids to certain types of rallies. For instance, this weekend, we participated in white coat rallies. Those are healthcare workers speaking out against genocide. 

Peaceful, if any counter-protesters even showed up-- We know yesterday one did. But with the power of one, [clicks tongue] [Shehla laughs] It works in some situations, but not in this one when you're in the wrong side of history. Counter-protesters would look really stupid heckling people who are praying at a vigil. They would look really stupid, heckling doctors, because one day they could be-- 

Shehla: They might need the doctor. [laughs]

Uzma Jafri: In a hospital. So it’s like, you don't want to be that stupid. 

Shehla: Yeah.

Uzma Jafri: Yeah, I would feel 100% comfortable taking my kids. It actually was a very nice family environment with hot cocoa and cookies. 

Shehla: Oh, nice.

Uzma Jafri: The activists had taken care of all of that for people attending. So yeah, things like that I think are very, very safe. It's the big actions. Like I said, when those high-level officials are coming town, if the president is coming in town, you want to check, engage what the risk is. You can do that with the organizers. It's perfectly okay for you to drive downtown, talk to an organizer or a security member, and be like, “What is the risk that something's going to happen today that would put my family in any kind of danger?” And if they say, “We expect this, this, and this,” sometimes they have an idea. If they tell you that, your trip was not wasted. You still showed up, you still tried, your intention was fulfilled, and Insha Allah, you will get the [unintelligible [00:22:26] for that. Take the family out for ice cream. Go write some letters, make some phone calls. You're still doing something. You're still doing enough. 

Shehla: Let's say, in your situation, okay, police show up, you do get arrested. What's the protocol after that? Because again, for a lot of us, we've never been in this situation. What do you do not do? 

Uzma Jafri: Well, you can do a lot of things, but I think the most important thing is do not resist arrest. Resisting arrest looks like other things. It's usually going to be like misdemeanor charges if you're at some kind of a sit in or you're staging something very dramatic like a die in or something. You could get arrested because you're on private property. I find that really funny because I think senators’ offices are public property. 

Shehla: They should be. 

Uzma Jafri: We’re paying the rent there. 

Shehla: Yeah. [laughs] 

Uzma Jafri: I don't know. But they're like, “Oh, we rented from this building.” It's like, “Yeah, with my money.” [laughs] 

Shehla: Yeah.

Uzma Jafri: So is this private property? But it is. The building owns it, not the senator. So if you resist arrest, it's a felony charge. And most of us cannot afford to have a felony charge. I professionally would have to jump through a lot of hoops if I was charged with the felony. So misdemeanors are okay. We're allowed to do that. That's not really a big deal for most of us. It's basically a traffic ticket. So, they will tell you, “We're going to arrest you, if you don't leave.” So they must announce that you must leave or we are going to—

Shela and Uzma Jafri: -arrest you. 

Uzma Jafri: So you get that one warning. And then they will give you another warning. “Okay, everybody who's here is going to jail tonight.” They will try to scare you into leaving with the other protesters. It's like, “Okay, you do what you have to do. We are ready for whatever consequences there are.” And at that point, they will say, “Okay.” And if they're really polite like ours were, they will take you one by one. It was a very nice, controlled situation. It wasn't like what we've seen coming out of some of these demonstrations and protests. I've seen some in Canada where I think they kicked a pregnant woman and a 13-year-old boy was brutalized by the police. So that can happen. And a lot of it is because you're not understanding when the police are telling you, “Hey, if you're here--” It's not their obligation to make sure you hear them. 

So if you're at a big protest and they're saying-- Because they're not going to say it with the megaphone. They're going to say, “If you're here, we're going to arrest you.” Or, if you come at an officer or you incite some kind of violence, they're going to arrest you. So that's why it's like, best be peaceful. Let them put their hands on you and they will ask you again, “Do you understand that you're under arrest?” You can choose to say yes or you can choose to be silent. But the less you say, the better it is. I chose to be silent. They just rolled their eyes and shrugged and put my hands behind my back and they put the handcuffs on me. 

They do not have to read your Miranda rights at that point. I think it's for bigger criminal charges that they do. But if it's just for a misdemeanor trespass, no Miranda rights and that's perfectly legal. You get into the car, or either when you're in the car, or by the time you get to the police station, they're going to ask your name, they're going to ask your address, they're going to ask you, I think, your phone number too. And a lot of that is to find you, so that they can send the ticket to you, send any court summons to you. You cannot answer, but then that means you're going to sit in the precinct longer. And that's why I'm saying, you can choose to do whatever you want to do. But as a group, typically the direct-action people will decide, “This is how we're going to proceed. We're all going to just give the information. We're all going to get up of our own accord when they tell us to get up,” because if you throw your body down and you become dead weight, they're just going to pick you up harder and hurt you. 

Shehla: Right. 

Uzma Jafri: So it's better to just cooperate in that sense too. So then when you go to the precinct, it's like preliminary, getting all that information done, getting the citation information. And then if they want to, they'll put you into jail. In our city, you get moved to a jail downtown and you stay there as long as they want to keep you. And that can be hours or it can be the next day. So some people have to stay overnight. And again, there's a jail support team working really hard to get everybody out. Lawyers, and they're working on it. So none of that happened to me, but that's how it goes. 

Shehla: Right. What if you're, let's say, recording them during the arrest? Do they [crosstalk]

Uzma Jafri: You can, but you can't record once you're-- They will take all of your belongings but bring them with you. Like, I had my water bottle. So, they were like, “Is this yours, ma'am?” And I was like, “Yeah.” And they were like, “Okay, do you want us to take it with you?” And I was like, “No, give it to him.” And they were like, “Do you know him?” I was like, “Yeah. I was like protesting with him. Just give it to him.” Because we had media people documenting what was going on. They weren't able to document what happened inside during the arrest, but they were able to document us walking out and getting into the cars, the police cars. 

So you can up to a point, but remember the jammers. So we knew they were there outside of the building as soon as our signal stopped. So we turned off our phones. You already knew. So I didn't want them to pull any data off of my phone. So I turned it off, and I pocketed it, and I was done, because I knew I couldn't film anything with handcuffs on. 

Shehla: You said that this is a misdemeanor charge. It doesn't go on your record, because that's what a lot of people are afraid of. Like, if I get arrested, it goes on my permanent record. The stipulation is, don't be a resisting arrest and just cooperate, and it's a misdemeanor charge. Otherwise, it's a felony.

Uzma Jafri: Resisting arrest is a felony charge, attacking an officer is a felony charge. In some states, blocking a highway is a felony charge. So if you're participating in one of those direct actions, you're probably going to get arrested and charged with a felony. And if that's a risk you're willing to accept. I love San Francisco and what they did. I think that was cool. I think Toronto did it too. So that's really, really impressive. I didn't see any arrests come out of that, but I haven't followed up. 

In any case, it doesn't go on your record and typically there's going to be either a fine or like a few hours of community service, which, let's face it, Muslims are doing all the time anyway. So you'll easily fulfill that obligation to the misdemeanor. For those of us who have certain professions, like in the medical field, for my licensure, whenever it comes due again, I'm going to have to-- from my state licensure, I'm going to have to report to the state that I had a misdemeanor charge and they will ask me to explain it and I will just tell them I was at a protest and I got arrested for exercising my right to protest in a civil disobedient action, and I was not violent during this, and this is whatever information about the ticket I got. 

A lot of that was made easier, again, during the Black Lives movement, when the American Medical Association, which is one of the most impotent organizations for doctors there is in history. The one good thing they did do was during Black Lives Matter, because a lot of doctors were risking arrest and getting arrested, they created a clause that told states, “Do not withhold licensure or relicensure of physicians who are exercising their right for civil disobedience.” 

Shehla: I think all of this information, Uzma, is so integral. Most of us, like, again, we all want to go to protests, but there is this fear-- I think we watch a lot of movies. When you see it on tv, on the news, people getting arrested, like, we want to do it safely. And the Palestinian cause is so important for us. Not just as Muslims, okay? At this point, it is our collective humanity at stake. For real, we want to raise our voices, we want to do what we can. And protesting is one of those things. All of this information that you've given is so important just for that reason, that we can do it wisely, we can do it safely. I'm so grateful for that, Uzma. 

But please, before I let you go, let everybody know where they can find you on Mommying While Muslim podcast, because I know, December, you all are going to be covering Palestine as well, everything that's going on. So it's so important. Everybody, please tune into Mommying While Muslim podcast to find out more about what is happening and what you can do. Please let my people know. 

Uzma Jafri: Thank you so much, Shehla, for that. So we are at on socials @mommywhilemuslim-- Sorry. @mommingwhilemuslimpodcast on Instagram, Mommying While Muslim on Facebook. And then you can email us salam@mommyingwhilemuslim.com. For anything. Questions, concerns. We get all kinds of emails. And if you don't like something, [Shehla laughs] please let us know. [laughs] We're open to that too. So our December series is going to be What's Going on in Palestine? We had to reschedule our December because we thought it was really critical that we brought on people who could tell us some of the political information, some of the historical information, and really like a first-person point of view from people from Gaza, who are the most affected people in this situation, who can direct us, guide us. And their stories matter, their voices matter. It's not that they're voiceless, it's just that the whole world's not listening. So we're going to elevate their voices, In Sha Allah and hopefully, their stories are going to change the world.

Shehla: In Sha Allah. Again, thank you again so much, Uzma, for all of these pointers to everybody. And to everybody who's listened in, watched us on YouTube, y’all, take care of yourself and may peace be on you all. 

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Shehla: Thank you so much for tuning in to I'm A Muslim (And That's Okay!). And if you wish to follow my social media for more updates, you can follow me on Instagram, on Facebook and on YouTube. All the links to those are in the show notes. And if you are on Apple, or on Spotify, on Podchaser, please do give my podcast a five-star rating. It really does help get me in the public eye. And if you wish to donate to support the podcast, you can do so through the PayPal link in my show notes as well. Take care.