The Whole Muslim with Dr. Sadaf Lodhi: Talking Sex and Breaking Taboos

Shehla: This episode discusses subjects that may be inappropriate for little children. Listener discretion is advised.

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Shehla: Hi, everyone. May peace be on you all. And welcome to another episode of I'm A Muslim! (And That's Okay!). And I'm back with a yet another, The Whole Muslim! I had been featuring a lot of Muslims because my last season, it seemed like it was not enough. But I found some really, really great people and one of them I know in person Dr. Sadaf Lodhi, you are like, the very first time I met you, I was like, “She can't be for real. This is not correct,” but I'm going to get to that. Dr. Sadaf is an OB/GYN, but that's not why I'm here. Because, again, that's not the extraordinary part about her. What she does is important. Let's not make that mistake by any means. But you, Dr. Sadaf, are also intimacy coach. And to compound that, you're a fellow podcaster. Your podcast, The Muslim Sex Podcast, I mean, whopper right there. Three in one, Dr. Sadaf and I can't be happier to have you with me.

Dr. Sadaf: [laughs] Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it. 

Shehla: The pleasure is all mine. But like I said and as we were talking, you are the unicorn in so many different ways. Because, let's be honest, sex therapists is a fairly new thing, no matter which way you look at it, even in the wider context of culture, because traditionally, sex has always been a taboo thing, even under wider context, going to a sex therapist, it's usually seen as some weird failure on the part of society. Not a lot of people would be open to that. But then you really went deep into the fact that you're an intimacy coach for Muslims. How did that come about? Take us to the beginning, Dr. Sadaf, where did all of this come from?

Dr. Sadaf: You know, it's funny, I get this question all the time. 

Shehla: I'm sure. [laughs] I don't doubt that for a second. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah. So basically, I am a board-certified OB/GYN and I grew up in just a traditional home. And same thing, parents are-- my family, the community that I was raised in is pretty conservative. And nobody really talked about intimacy for sure. I mean, that's a given. Nobody talked about sex. And in fact, I had sex education in fifth grade and I didn't attend because my parents didn't really understand why that was necessary.

Shehla: You didn't get permission, did you? [laughs]

Dr. Sadaf: No, I didn't go. I didn’t, I didn’t. I did not go. I did like sit outside in the jungle gym. I was just sitting there waiting for everyone. And then people came out, and this little boy said to me, he's like, “Oh, your calendar is the most important thing.” And I had no idea. He was a little fifth grader, and I had no idea what he was talking about. I was like, “What is he even saying?” So, yes, I never had sex ed. And so then fast forward, I became an OB/GYN and just doing OB for a long time and still doing OB/GYN. And then I realized that I would have patients come to me and ask me questions about their sexual health and what was going on with them and different topics like decreased libido and arousal and things like that. 

To be honest, I really wouldn't know how to answer that. I mean, yeah, I could google it, right? And I could find that out, but I didn't really have the knowledge, the medical knowledge to even answer their questions. And so, the reason being is because in medical school, we only get a few hours of sex ed.

Shehla:  Really?

Dr. Sadaf: Really, yes.

Shehla: It is so weird. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yes, it is. So, for example, we only learned about the Masters & Johnson sexual response cycle, which is actually based on old white man in the 1960s. And it was husband and wife researcher Masters & Johnson that did the research, but it was really the male sexual response. So, that is what we were taught in medical school. And then no one had actually put together or even really did much research on the female sexual response until 2001. There was a woman named Rosemary Bassen who put together the female sexual response cycle. And so now that's being taught, and that's being taught all over with-- I don't know if it's being taught in medical schools. I can't say that because I went to medical school a while ago. So, I'd have to ask somebody that's going through medical school to see what they're still teaching. So that's what I learned. Then in my OB/GYN residency, I didn't learn anything about sex ed either. Can you believe that? 

Shehla: Wow.

Dr. Sadaf: Four years. Four years of residency, we go through obstetrics, where we learn about the developing fetus and all the things that can go wrong with fetus, and we learn about labor and delivery and C-sections and all that stuff. Then we learned about gynecology and the female reproductive tract and cancers and pathologies associated with that. But we never learned about sex. Never learned about-- 

Shehla: That is so weird Dr. Sadaf, I can't comprehend this. [laughs]

Dr. Sadaf: I know, it doesn't make sense, but it's true, at least for me and I can tell you that just a few years ago, I was an attending physician that was teaching residents and I can guarantee you they weren't learning anything about sex ed either. 

Shehla: Wow. 

Dr. Sadaf: So, the question then becomes, where do physicians learn their information, right?

Shehla: Right.

Dr. Sadaf: So, if we have patients coming to us asking us questions, but we ourselves don't know or never learned it, then what do we do and that really is a dilemma. So, in 2021, I came to realize and I knew that before, but it was really something that I sat down and thought about. I was like, you know what? There's really this huge void not only in medicine, because even when you talk to other physicians, I'll tell you, they are very uncomfortable talking about sex. And it's really interesting because sex is all around us especially in the western hemisphere.

Shehla: Right.

Dr. Sadaf: We see it in the news, we see it in the media, we see it in magazines, we see in cartoons, we see it everywhere. Movies? 

Shehla: It's a huge industry. I mean, I hate to put it that way, but it is. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yes. But you know what the interesting thing is, is that even with all of that, I would still say that our society is pretty sex negative. There's a huge taboo--

Shehla: Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.

Dr. Sadaf: We see with Roe v. Wade, we see with comprehensive sex education, really, there isn't comprehensive sex education.

Shehla: No really.

Dr. Sadaf: It's because kids don't learn. I mean, what are they learning? They're learning maybe-- And you know what the interesting thing is, is that they learn based on where they are located. So, for example, if you are in a more, say, liberal state, they'll learn something different than a more conservative state. It's all even based on the school district.

Shehla: Wow. 

Dr. Sadaf: So, you can be in a liberal state but be in a conservative-

Shehla: School district. 

Dr. Sadaf: -school district and not get appropriate information. Because even though each state gets money and federal funding for sex education, it's not regulated. So, the states can decide how they want to teach. So, we have different laws as, you know, passed in Florida as opposed to state of New York, so kids are learning something else. It's one thing to have our own belief. And nobody's going touch that.

Shehla: No.

Dr. Sadaf: You have your belief, I have my belief, whatever. But it's another thing to provide comprehensive sexual education that is science-backed, evidence-based research and then culturally relevant. So, you want to tell somebody that in, for example, the state of Texas that you're in. I believe you're in Texas, yeah. So, they have one of the most-strictest abortion laws and you have reproductive refugees that are going to different states to have abortions. I mean, it's really unfortunate. So, still you're not going to prevent unplanned pregnancy. You are not going to prevent intimate partner violence. You are not going to prevent sexually transmitted infections. If you don't teach people how to protect themselves. And if you want really to help people, you really have to start from the beginning. You have to start-- And nobody's saying that at five years old you're going to be teaching children how to have sex. That's not what we're saying. 

Shehla: I don't think at any age you're really teaching kids how to have sex. But the point is that this should not be taboo. No matter which way you look at it, I mean, a lot of people have different things in Muslim circles. It's not that sex is forbidden. It's different contexts of where sexual activity happens. That's the thing. 

Dr. Sadaf: Correct, correct. And that's the thing that we don't understand. So, just going back. So, even though there's sex all around us, I would say that in society it is still very sex negative. And so, when you go to your physician and you ask them about sexual health or questions or whatever, their comfort level is going to vary. Some may be really open to talk with, some others may say, “You know what? Why don't you go ask your gynecologist? I'm not sure, this and that.” And then when you go to your gynecologist, if your gynecologist doesn't know, who are you supposed to go ask? 

Shehla: That's what I'm wondering, literally, if somebody has a problem of the sexual nature, where are they going?

Dr. Sadaf: Right. And then compound that with if your gynecologist doesn't agree with whatever it is that their patient is asking. So, say that their patient comes in and isn't married, but that gynecologist doesn't believe in premarital sex, but that patient is asking questions or if the patient is asking about abortion, that physician should not be making decisions based on their values.

Shehla: Values, yeah.

Dr. Sadaf: Because you cannot be putting your ideas onto other people. You should just be helping them for whatever they come in for. So, we have this scenario now where there are some physicians, because they feel uncomfortable with the topic or with the nature of the question, they refuse to even entertain the question, which I think is unfortunate. Because that really doesn't help the patient.

Shehla: It doesn't help the patient at all. And plus, with all of these, I would call them anti-reproductive health laws like Roe v. Wade being overturned, people just look at it in one way with the fact that it's premarital sex or sex outside of marriage or whatever it may be. But ultimately, especially in Texas, I could have an ectopic pregnancy and I could die from it, but they have nobody who would be doing an abortion on me. 

Dr. Sadaf: That is correct, correct. And this is just a sidenote, with an ectopic pregnancy, as you know, it's pregnancy outside of the uterus. So, it ruptures. That's not even a viable pregnancy to begin with.

Shehla: No, no.

Dr. Sadaf: With that pregnancy, if it grows, it's going to kill the mom. If it ruptures, it's going to kill the mom. So, it really needs to be removed. And the fact that physician’s hands are tied is really, really unfortunate. 

Shehla: Yeah. 

Dr. Sadaf: It doesn't help anyone. It's definitely not helping the mom. That's for sure. 

Shehla: Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, here, from what you've told us, is that there is still such a lacking in physicians being able to help their patients with any kind of sexual knowledge, whatever it may be. There's a number of different, I would hate to call it a sexual dysfunction, but any number of things where patients are not having the sexual experience as it should be and it's a medical reason, they probably can't consult with their OB/GYN on any of these things, even though that would be the first place that anyone would go for it.

Dr. Sadaf: So, that's actually what started my journey. So, I thought about like there is this huge void. I myself didn't feel equipped to answer questions. So then what was the solution? So, the solution and especially in our Muslim communities, a lot of times we don't talk about these topics,-

Shehla: At all.

Dr. Sadaf: -shameful, dirty, wrong, embarrassing. Even though, we know that Islam is a very sex positive religion, it's that most others do not know that. And those women then don't give themselves permission to learn about it because they feel like it's wrong or dirty, that they're committing a sin and that they're not really supposed to be learning about this stuff. And so, with that sex negativity, then a lot of problems arise. And then I felt who else better than a gynecologist to really get equipped to be able to answer these questions.

So, then I did a year-long course with the University of Michigan for sexual counseling and education. So, I'm actually a sex counselor and I did coaching through Rutgers University. So, I learned how to coach people. So, that's really how I married all of that together. So as a gynecologist and as an intimacy coach, I basically help women to remove physical and mental barriers to experiencing pleasure in their relationship.

Shehla: If I could ask you and here's the thing, especially you had mentioned, because it can be taboo, especially within Muslim circles, even though it doesn't need to be, how do you break down that barrier, again, it'd be hard enough for a woman to come to you and be like, “I have this problem.” And then with whatever counseling you give for them to really take that in and I guess apply it in a sense.

Dr. Sadaf: So, the women that do approach me, they have a lot-- definitely lots of different issues that come up, whether it's with arousal, libido, or just mismatched libido, all of those things. Basically, what I do and that's really why I'm so glad I'm a coach, is because it all starts with your thoughts. And so, breaking it down to the root of the problem. And a lot of times, if women are thinking that sex is wrong, dirty, shameful, embarrassing, all of those things, then to start with that and look at those thoughts, because once we analyze the thoughts, then those thoughts, whatever thoughts they are, thoughts create feelings, and then people act on those feelings. So, feelings create actions.

But if we can go to where it all starts, which are the thoughts, and try to help the patient or the woman change those thoughts from that, it's wrong, it's shameful, it's dirty, then that'll create a different feeling. So, think about it. If you think that sex is a wonderful thing and that something really beautiful that two people that really care about each other can enjoy and experience, then it creates a different feeling.

It creates a feeling of happiness. And with that feeling of happiness, then the action there is that you would hopefully want it as opposed to thinking that sex is wrong or dirty or shameful, then it creates a feeling of shame or guilt. And then the action would be that you really don't desire or want it because you don't want that negative feeling. So that's kind of where I go.

Shehla: And I think it's fantastic, especially if Muslim women do come to you, approach you, and now you have, I guess, the skill and the knowledge to help them. But when you look at overall statistics, I'm not even talking about just within Muslim circles, pleasure for women is about, I guess, almost 60:40. Only 40% of women experience sexual pleasure as opposed to 60% of men. I think this is an old statistic, I read this a long time ago. So, the fact is that there is an imbalance over there where it's not just that women are not doing what needs to be done in an intimacy, it's just that men are not aware as well. How do you approach that within a Muslim context? Lot of dudes are not going to be happy about coached in this sort of area. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, yeah. So, I think that's really where communication comes into play. So, I am coaching women, and what I do is usually I start out with the mindset and then we also then go over anatomy because a lot of women are not familiar with their own anatomy because they were never given permission to even look at their own anatomy. So, to go over the anatomy and then after that to look at ways to move forward.

Now there is actually something called a female sexual satisfaction survey. And when they asked participants, what was the number one thing that helped you become more sexually satisfied? And the number one reason was communication. So, if women had open communication where they were able to and felt comfortable discussing with their partner their desires, their wants, and what they like, then they were more sexually satisfied, which makes sense.

Shehla: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Dr. Sadaf: They couldn’t have that communication. And those that did not have that open communication, obviously they were not as satisfied. So, as you were just saying that, how do you deal with when men are not on board. Well, that really comes into the women talking to the husbands, right. To their partners about what they want. And if they're not able to talk to their partners about that, then that is another thing to really look at and be like, well, why are you not able to have that type of conversation? Because what I believe is that whatever is happening in the bedroom is also happening outside of the bedroom.

So, you're not able to have these intimate, delicate, very important conversations regarding sexual intimacy. Then you're probably not having a lot of other conversations either. And what does your overall communication look like? Do you typically talk to your partner? Are you not talking to your partner? Are you stonewalling your partner? Are you just basically roommates and just passing each other by? So, I think that then leads a person to really look at their relationship holistically.

Shehla: Holistically. That's what I would imagine. But again, Dr. Sadaf, what you're doing is like, again, it's so unusual and on top of that, you have the Muslim Sex Podcast. Tell us about that. What are you doing in your podcasting?

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, I know, right. So, that name actually came about, initially, I had started the podcast with a friend of mine, and I actually was really hesitant to call it that because I had my own feelings that I had to work around with that word because I myself felt a little bit hesitant to use that word. And she was like, “No, no, we have to use that because that's going to all of a sudden catch people's attention and be like, what the heck is that?” Like an oxymoron. People don't think that Muslims have sex. [laughs] 

So, that's why we named it that. And then initially, when I first started, I was doing a lot of topics about obstetrics and gynecology and went through the whole thing. And then I decided to kind of, I guess, change the direction a little bit. So, basically what I do is I interview a lot of physicians and a lot of people and everything relates back to intimacy and relationships.

And so now that's more of my focus. So, for example, I had on somebody that was an obesity coach who's a family doctor and an obesity coach. And then we talked about how weight affects body image, which then affects how people feel, which then will affect their intimacy in their relationship with their partner. I had on somebody else that was an attorney and she talked about domestic violence. I had on domestic violence survivor and she talked about her journey. I've had on all different people. I've had on a few psychiatrists. One of my family friends is a psychiatrist and he did a three-part series on anxiety in relationships and how that manifests and how that affects intimacy. So, they're all like different topics. I've done a few topics on perimenopause, menopause, things like that. So, it all relates back to intimacy, but they're just different things in a woman's life that may affect her. 

Shehla: So, if somebody wants to really have a deeper look into the intimacy of their relationship, it's not just about sexual activity. You had said, first of all, first and foremost is communication. What would you advise for everybody who's listening that communication is key but what else? That's the thing. When people talk about sex, it's just about the act of sex, but it's a lot more, intimacy is more than the physical act itself. So, how would you guide people into what real, full intimacy is?

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, yeah that's a great question. So, actually, as you know, intimacy, there're different types of intimacy. We have emotional intimacy. An emotional intimacy is where you can be vulnerable with your spouse or your partner. You are able to discuss your feelings, your thoughts, your desires, and all of that. That creates emotional intimacy. There is also intellectual intimacy where you can share your ideas, perhaps you're spiritually connected and things like that. And of course, there's physical intimacy. So, looking at all those different parts of intimacy, a lot of times women prefer the emotional intimacy and want that connection with their partner even before the physical intimacy comes. So, they want to have a connection. It's really rare, I shouldn't say really rare, because women are not a monolith. So, it is not as common for women to have sex with somebody and not feel that emotional connection-

Shehla: Connection, right.

Dr. Sadaf: -not as common. It can happen. And of course, it does happen, but it's not as common. So, when we look at the female sexual response cycle, a lot of things can affect it. And so, desire and arousal are affected with the barometer of their relationship. Actually, sex is a barometer of their relationship of what's happening in their relationship. So many things can affect the female sexual response cycle. So, we also have this biopsychosocial model that comes in where, for example, medical conditions, say, diabetes or chronic issues, chronic pain, all of those can affect whether or not a person is going to be intimate. There can be medications that affect a person's desire, arousal.

We know that birth control pills will definitely affect desire. It decreases desire. There are other medications, for example, like calcium channel blockers for somebody that has high blood pressure or some diabetic meds will also affect desire. We also know that anxiety and depression meds for those can affect desire. And, of course, the cultural aspect of it. So, when we talk about the biopsychosocial, the social aspect of it, which is the cultural aspect, for example, how was that person raised? If they were raised in a very sex negative environment, then it's unlikely that they're going to want to have sex. Unless they think of it as like a wifely duty or another chore that they have to do.

Also, the uneven distribution of household chores, there's been a study on that and that absolutely negatively affects desire.

Shehla: For real.

Dr. Sadaf: You are always doing all the work around the house. 

Shehla: It's not even just work. There's so much emotional load to a lot of things that, especially as moms, we have to do. It's not just like cooking, cleaning, or anything. You're basically planning out 10 bajillion things for little people in your lives. 

Dr. Sadaf: That's correct. That's correct. So, when you have all that going on, sex then goes to the bottom of the list, and it just becomes one more thing on your checklist. So, it's really not a priority. Or if you have single moms that are trying to do everything that is really not going to be top of priority either. So, there're so many things that go into this female sexual response cycle that affect arousal and desire that a lot of times women don't want to have sex for those reasons that it's stated. And so really, it's important when a woman comes in to really assess all those things and make sure that you're covering all those different topics because there's a lot more to it than, “Oh, she just doesn't want to have sex.” There is so many reasons why that may or may not be the case. 

Shehla: I mean, I think-- Yes, go ahead. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah. No, no, I just want to say one more thing is that there's a great author. I don't know if you've read her book, Come as You Are, Emily Nagoski. 

Shehla: I've heard of her, but definitely.

Dr. Sadaf: She's has done a few TED talks and she's a psychologist and I believe she's a sex therapist, but she's done a lot of research on women and the female sexual response. In her book, Come as You Are, she basically talks about things that will inhibit the sexual response and things that will cause it to go. So, she calls it the brakes and the accelerators. And so, she talks about that and different things will affect that. And one of the things that she says, which I think is so true, is to want sex is to have sex worth wanting. Meaning like, what? 

Shehla: No. no. Wow. I never thought of it that way. But yes. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, right. So, it's unlikely that somebody is going to want sex if they're not really getting anything from it. So, if they're not experiencing pleasure. If their partner doesn't care, if their partner doesn't really communicate, if their partner is not even willing to learn about the female anatomy to pleasure them, they're really not getting anything out of that experience. So, then they're probably going to have a lot of excuses and reasons to not want to have.

Shehla: Yeah. And that's the thing, especially for women, even those that are trying to really create, I guess, a better sexual experience for them. They then do have to face a lot of backlash for it as well. A lot of women who are sex positive are then seen as being too open or being too demanding and all of these things does fall into their thing. But the fact is, for any real relationship, it has to go both ways. It should not be just a chore.

Dr. Sadaf: Correct? Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. And it's really important for the spouse to learn and understand what-- I mean if they're interested. So, sometimes if you think your relationship is just failing and you don't care, then- [laughs]

Shehla: That’s different.

Dr. Sadaf: Right, you don't care. But if you are in a relationship where you actually do care and both partners, both people really care about the other person, but just don't know how to go about it, then it behooves you to really just communicate. And I've had the question, like, “Well, we're so busy, we don't have time,” but everyone has the same amount of time in the day. Everyone has 24 hours. The thing is that you have to create time.

Shehla: Prioritize.

Dr. Sadaf: Right. For anything that's really important in your life, you write it down, you put it in your calendar. You set aside time, for example, you record podcasts. So, you put it in your calendar and you record it and things like that. So, for anyone that is trying to really improve their relationship, you have to set aside time. You have to make time. You have to create time in your day or in your week or whatever. And I think what's really important is that it is important to have those date nights and everybody rolls their eyes and it's like, “Oh, yeah, date nights, whatever. You've heard that before.” But really, it's true, because that day or that night, you're telling the other person that they are really important to you and that you are setting aside time for that.

So, that's the time where you put away your phone, you turn it off, you just don't have it. So that you are completely engaged in your conversations with your partner. All your attention is to them. And so, they really feel as if they are important to you because you have put all your attention on them. And being mindful in relationships. So, studies have also shown that when we are mindful, and they've done mindful behavioral therapy in people that have decreased arousal and desire. And so, they've noted that when women are more mindful when they are being intimate. So, mindfulness is when you are basically in the moment without judgment and showing compassion to yourself. So, it's without judgment. 

So, you're in that scenario and you really just focused on that scenario or say you're having dinner with your spouse or whoever, you're really just engrossed in what they're saying and really listening and really paying attention so that they feel like they're seen and heard. Same thing when you're being physically intimate. You could be thinking about how does the skin feel on my fingertips? How does this feel? How does that feel? Right. So that you are really present in the situation and in the experience so that you really get the most joy out of it. 

Shehla: One last question before I give everybody the wonderful information of how to get in touch with you. Are you just doing your intimacy counseling for Muslim women or is it open to everybody? 

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, no, it's open to everyone. It's not specific. Actually, my clients right now that I have are not Muslim women. So, it is open to any cisgendered female that is in a heteronormative relationship that is interested in trying to enhance her relationship with her partner and with herself, really. Really, it starts with yourself. And it really starts with the feelings you have around intimacy and how you can improve it for yourself. Because once you feel like you are enjoying it, once you're in a good place, then you can enjoy it with somebody else. It really begins with you and how you feel. And so that's why I focus on women. 

And I think that maybe eventually I will start to coach couples as well, because I do agree that it really takes both people and that it's hard if you're just focusing on one person. But again, like, I'll say that's really where the communication comes in and it's really important. And with my coaching clients, I give homework. And one of the homework is that you really need to communicate with your partner and you need to set aside time to have that communication. 

Shehla: But here's the thing, and that's where all of this is in. And again, I hope that one day either you or somebody with you does start the whole couple thing, because the one-way communication can be hard when the other person is not sure how to navigate this sort of newfound expectation. I think that's what it is, is that especially when you age, you're like-- but everything is going fine, when in essence, it might be fine for one person but not the other person. But again, I love what you do. I love that you've created this especially you help women explore something that has forever been something that is imposed upon us as a taboo. And as for Muslim women, if Muslim women can come too, I think that's absolutely fantastic. 

So please tell my audience, where can they find you? How can they get in touch with you for your intimacy coaching and just to get in touch with your podcast just to learn more about themselves?

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am available on, you can go to my website at drsadaf.com. You can go on my Instagram or my TikTok @drsadafobgyn and you can DM me there. I have a Beacons which is like a link tree where you can go ahead and schedule a consultation and get in touch with me there. You can email me at drsadaf.com. I'm also on YouTube at Dr. Sadaf - An Intimacy Coach and I have the podcast, The Muslim Sex podcast, which I would love for your viewers to listen to and leave me a five-star review because I think it's really important to get the information out there and let people know that there is a resource that they can access. And that is free.

Shehla: Right. And again, I have mad respect for what you do and I am so grateful that you do it, really, because it's high time that somebody did this for us. 

Dr. Sadaf: Yeah, absolutely. Right. I agree.

Shehla: Yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Sadaf for being here, for sharing all of this valuable information. I can't thank you enough. And thank you to everybody who's listened in and watched us on YouTube. Y'all take care of yourself and may peace be on you all. 

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Shehla: Thank you so much for tuning into I'm A Muslim! (And That's Okay). And if you wish to follow my social media for more updates, you can follow me on Instagram, on Facebook, and on YouTube. All the links to those are in the show notes and if you are on Apple or on Spotify, or on Podchaser, please do give my podcast a five-star rating. It really does help get me in the public eye. And if you wish to donate to support the podcast, you can do so through the PayPal link in my show notes as well. Take care.